Dual base Routers

[Ed in Tampa]

For the past 5-8 years tool manufactures have been selling routers with dual bases. I know a lot of people jumped on them because they were getting "two routers" for the price of "one"??. However I found with careful shopping you could actually buy two routers for less than most of these kits.

However things are changing, I'm seeing the price of these kits falling. In fact I just passed on a Dewalt DW618PK priced at $160.

I know most people say mount the fixed base in the router table and use the plunge base hand held. And this is where my question comes in. Instead of buying a kit I was able to pick up a Hitachi MV12 3 1/4 horse on close out for $80 or $100, I don't remember the exact price. And a Porter Cable 8529 for $100 both are plunge routers. I use both routers hand held or mounted, with the Hitachi usually in my table and the Porter Cable hand held.

I really don't have a fixed base router except an old Sears 1/4 that is a poor test for anything.

My question to you all is, am I missing something by not having a fixed base router? Also am I missing something by not utilizing one of these multi base routers? If so what??

Ed

[reible]

Hi,

It all depends. For me I couldn't live life to its fullest without the fix based routers I have. My first router a sears back in the mid 70's it was nice for then but as I grew so did my needs and wants. I added a fix based PC 690 and with in months knew I had made a mistake not getting the package deal with the plunge base. Well I paid the price and got the plunge package followed by another mistake of only getting that and not the combo package of the plunge and D-handle bases. So I paid the price again.

For some reason a lot of people I know have not invested in the D-handle??? The people I know that have them love them. So as a prime example I have one motor that fits in a light weight standard base, a heavier but very useful plunge base and for when I want it a router that sits in a D-handle base. Almost reminds you of a certain multipurpose tool you know right?

Well the story doesn't end there. I got a few more routers after that, alright, more then a few but who is counting. I added another 690 so I could mount one of the fix bases to a router table. As you no doubt know the alignment of the router to the table is critical if you use things like guide bushings, so it makes since to get the base mounted and left in place so all you need to do is add the router when you want to use it. Add another router table you add another base (I think it is Rockler that sells these for that purpose).

Now we will skip over some years and some purchases and get to things like the OPR which is designed to take the motor of a router. Some of the current lifts on the market are designed to do that only too. Same for things like the Woodhaven Angle Ease... designed to clamp the motor only. When I got my old OPR I mounted one of my Hitachi routers in the arm and the base below. I tend to like to keep the router in the arm enough to have dedicated that router to that job. Not a big deal since I have 3 of them. One purchased as the kit with fixed and plunge base and the other two with just fix bases. I also got an extra base to mount in yet another router table. It is very likely I will be getting yet another router for use in the Jointech table I just got last fall.

On the old Joint-matic I added another PC base and leave that in place on there so that when I want to use it I just pop a router in. Maximum flexability and quickness to change over too. Still sounds like another tool you know.

Most really large routers (3-1/2HP) weigh what 13 to 15 pounds? They don't balance as well as the shorter fix based routers in the 5 to 8 pound range or even as well as the 8 to 11 pound combo plunge bases. I've been looking for years for a small, say PC 310 size plunge router that I can afford (yes I know they make them but out of my price range). This weight thing may not affect you now but I know that in the last few years all of my routers are putting on pounds... or at least my arms think so.

Another thing to think about is when table routing how do you do your height adjustments??? Some plunge router have built in adjustments, others you have to fight against the springs with a hand and arm under trying to fight gravity too.... If you go the route of taking the springs out (which I have done) you either need to put them back in to use as a hand held or plan to keep in the table (best solution). You can of course add lifts to the table at a COST. The simple fixed base and having the mounting plate pop out like seen on The Router Workshop works well for me...

This is well longer then it should be but at least it should give you a few things to think about. And no I don't have 50 some routers like Norm does... I even have been know to have to change bits on projects so I don't go for the one bit one router club idea either, only due to cost and space issues.

Ed

[Ed in Tampa]

Ed
I read your reply with interest and see what you saying. On one point I would like to say I have never seen a fixed base router used on The Router Workshop show. The started with an Hitachi MV12, moved to a Dewalt I think 621 and then to Porter Cable using either the battery plunge or the new plunge. They may have used a fix base but I don't recall it.

For my router table I like my Hitachi Mv12, and yes I removed the springs but I still use it handheld at times but always locked never as a plunger.

I have never understood a fixed base in a table mount it seems like they are so hard to adjust from above the table, and if you remove them using a plunge is the same difference.

Help me understand the advantage of a fixed base in or out of table use.
Ed

[curiousgeorge]

Ed (in Tampa), IMHO there is nothing you can do with a fixed that can't be done with a plunge, but the opposite is not true. That being said, there are times when a fixed is, maybe, easier to control due to the lower center of gravity and/or handle type (D handle for example).
I guess, like most things, it all comes down to personal preference. I have the gamut covered with a Triton 2 1/4 plunge in my table, a Ryobi fixed, a GMC with plunge, fixed and "D" handle bases and a small trim router for extra measure.

[reible]

Hi,

With close to 200 shows even I a big fan have not seen them all. I have even missed whole seasons before I knew about them. But anyway yes they have had fix base routers featured during the PC years.

Now before we get to far into this I have one fixed base router that has a knob that you turn to make it go up and down... it also can self eject if you get it too loose and the gears disengage. I don't use that in a table because it did that a few times to me and one of the times it fell and wrecked a router bit.

Also the two 690's are older models and if you twist to far they will drop out the bottom. I have never had that happen but I have heard stories of others who did. The newer ones have a fix applied that makes this a non issure. They also came with the knob you turn to lock the router in the base and it was less then wonderful. It can be replaced with a lever on the older ones while the newer ones come that way.

My favorite router now is the Hitachi M12VC. I will not go into details but like I said I have 3 of them and might well add a 4th this summer. Since I have to pick one to go into details with I will use this model. First this as well as the 690 use a turning motion of the motor in the housing to change the height. They also have a way of locking the height where you put it. On the Hitachi they have a two stage clamp, well three if you look at locked as a positon. When the clamp is fully open the motor turns easy and quick for large changes in height or if you are taking the motor out. At the half way point so to speak the router motor is snug and fine adjustsments are easy to make. They also have a slip ring around the housing that has measurements for adjusting depth of cut.

So lets do a typical router workshop type change of bits. First you of course unplug the router. Pop the mounting plate and router out and undo the latch to the full open position. Turn/spin the base off the the motor and get your wrenches and do the hand grip deal to take the bit out. Put the new bit in and do the hand grip thing to tighten. Put the base back on and looking down at the bit and plate get close to the height. Close the latch and using your brass bars you turn the router motor to set the height to say a 1/4". (An option at this point is to turn the ring and set it at 1/4" as a reference). Close the latch and it all goes back in the table. If it turns out the bit is to high or low you can unlatch and turn the motor to correct it while it is in the table, or pop it back out if you want. If you have set the ring to say the 1/4" and want to go to 3/8" deeper you need only turn the router motor until it reaches the 1/4 + 3/8 or 5/8 mark...

The ring has 8 marks per 1/8" so each mark is 1/64" and you can guess between the marks so you can get very close just using the scale if you want too. I don't do this much for table operations but it nice for hand held operations and sort of works like the depth stops on a plunge router... well you have to turn and watch for the change... no physical stops.

The really nice part about have a router base mounted to the mounting plate is the alignment can be done so the guide bushings all set to be used without have to do another alignment. You simply swap out the router and use it some where else then come back and pop it back in. Since the fix bases are not to expensive it makes since sometimes to have some extras and have them mounted ready to be used.

I hope I answered a few more of you questions, if not ask again and if you want I can even take some pictures in a few days show anything my words are failing to convey.

Ed

[reible]

This discussion was over at:
http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showthread.htm?t=4448

But it more correctly should be here I think and so I'm moving my bits of it here.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ed,

Have to say this sounds like a discussion we had before.

So let's look at my favorite router at the moment and use Amazon for prices.

Hitachi KM12VC is a case with a fixed and plunge base plus a lot of other goodies. Price $162.25. If you get the M12VC fixed base router it is $119.00. What I did was get one of the kit (K) to start with. This gave me a plunge or fixed base and the motor works in either one. Flexibility and room to grow, which I did by getting 3 of the fixed base routers plus an extra fixed base. Of the 4 I got 3 as new ones and one as a reconditioned and I have been very happy with even the reconditioned one (if I recall it was a "C" class for $58 and free shipping at the time). Now I don't see that cost being so bad a deal for all the things you can do with them.

I have the same sort of thing with my PC 690 set up. I mistakenly went the wrong route when I got them. I started with a fixed base rather then the the 3-base deal they were offering. So when I got the plunge base and the D-handle base one at a time I paid a lot more then I could have if I got the collection all at once. I also got a spare fixed base for this set up. The second 690 router I got was a special edition and it only came as a fixed base, no options.

I have a 3-1/2HP router that I keep in a table. It is designed as a plunge router and you do not have the option of changing bases. When I first put it in the table I went the router workshop way of removing the springs so it was easier to adjust... keep in mind this router tips the scale at some 12-13 pounds. This was working fine but one day I decided to get a router lift for it and it required the springs be in place but now I just turn the crank and up and down it goes... That is the only place I have use a plunge router in a table.

I like to use fixed bases and leave them attached to the table. Why? Because it takes time to adjust the base relative to the table where the guide bushings mount. If the base is adjusted to the table then all I need to do is remount the router and I'm set to go. It is critical to me to have the alignment about as perfect as I can get it so this procedure saves me time.

I also have several routing systems that I exchange routers between. The Joint-Matic has a PC base mounted and it works really well to just turn the router motor to do the adjustment. Trying to use a plunge base might work but it would be a lot harder at least to my way of thinking.

I have a router base that tilts and it requires a round motor as does my older version OPR. A plunge only router could not be used for either of those systems.

I keep my Hitachi kit as a traveling set and the ability to have it all packed in one case helps. The option is of course open when I am doing a project were it is simpler to have a few routers set up with different bit and then change router rather then change bits. [Side note here. Some years back Steve Thomas was host of TOH and he came to speak to a group I was in and after the presentation he open the meeting to questions... it seems they all were questions about Norm.... I felt sorry for him but he said it was the "norm" and go ahead. Someone ask how may routers Norm had, Steve replied that he thought the number was 56 or something like that. He said Norm would have bits he used often in the routers so he just picked the bit and used that router].

Most of my router tables are set up so I can pop the mounting plate out. On some of them the space is very limited to the point I have to take off the handles to make it easier to get in and out. Having a plunge base would make it impossible to have it pop out.

I guess some of this is personal preference and how you adapted to your routing situation. I find it easy to make adjustments just by tuning the motor on both the Hitachi and the PC. It is also nice if I want to pull the motor out and change bits or collets that I have that option. So I have to say I see no reason to ever change from fix mounts in router tables, and if I did I would go with the type like the Hitachi where you just screw the motor into the plunge base. My version of the 690 has a screw that tightens a holder against the base, in my opinion not as good an option.

Now I'm going to go and search to see if I can find the first time we discussed this.

Ed


====== Quote========
Originally Posted by Ed in Tampa
I still wish someone would answer my question.

Why do some insist that it is better to pay more than twice the cost of two single routers by buying one of these two base kits?

Also why would you want to mount a fix base router in a router table when you could mount a plunge router there instead?

I don't understand it.

Look at the Dewalt 618PK you can actually buy two 618 plunge routers for the same price or a little more than the 618PK kit that comes with one motor and two bases one fixed and one plunge. With the two separate routers you get two plunger bases and two motors.

Am I missing something????????

[reible]

This discussion was over at:
http://www.shopsmith.net/forums/showthread.htm?t=4448

But it more correctly should be here I think and so I'm moving my bits of it here.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,

I don't know who tested what, but I have 4 routers and more bases then that and I NEVER have to adjust between routers and bases. I have so much confidence I don't even check anymore. I would think my sample size and given different lots they would have come from should be an indication that these are pretty uniform. Given they might be off by a couple of thousandths of an inch but the fact the centering devices/device conformation might be off more then the routers them selves.

So I guess we just plain differ in how we think things work. And it could be due to the brands/quality/designs that we are looking at. I can however speak to what I have and what I use. The stuff just plain works for me.

As far as why fixed vs plunge for hand held operations... well I can think of a few. Weight, plunge routers are usually heavier then fixed base, at the end of a day of routing you will notice the difference. Center of gravity, plunge routes tend to be top heavy and the handles are farther away from the work piece... fixed routers can have the handles lower and that plain works better. Plunge routers you are always working against the springs, not so for fixed base routers. If I gave it a few more minutes I'm sure I could come up a few more but those alone add up to some good reasons.

No one is going to force you to go and buy what you don't want. But don't forget I don't buy routers for hype, I buy them to work with and I'd go the same route with the Hitachi again but I would change the way I got the PC and got the package with all three bases out of the gate.

If some of you are wondering about the D-handle set up you might have noticed this was a big favorite with Norm. He is the one that got me to try one and I have to say I think it was a great addition to my collection. If you are shopping for a router package and they offer that in a package I would say go for it.

Well time for a walk and some more shop time this afternoon. Early lunch break today.

Ed







===========Quote============

Originally Posted by Ed in Tampa
Reible thanks for you input.

I understand the desire to have router table setups remain constant.
I also understand the desire to have multiple setups.
What I don't understand is using separate bases.

At one time fixed base bases kept the center line of the router more (key word)constant than plunge routers but both varied to some degree. However with improvements in the plunge mechanisms most high quality plunge routers are capable of going through their full range of depth adjustment without significantly effecting the routers center point. However that is not true for fixed based bases. There is still a fair degree of movement, the thinking on this is once the depth is set it won't change so there is no real need to guard against center movement change in the depth adjustment.

Also tests by independants have shown that each base will center the router motor a tiny bit different than another base. Using multiple motors with multiple bases compound the problem.

To me to have router setups remain constant (as in a router table) would be to mount a high quality plunge router and center it. Since neither the router motor or the base will ever change or be moved the setup should remain constant. Each table setup would remain constant no change.

Using a fixed base router for hand held routing also mystifies me. Again at one time there was movement in the plunge mechanism, but in today's routers it has been eliminated. So my question remains why use a fixed base router.

I don't think that question has been answered.

Personally I think ad hype has overuled our critical thinking and manufactures have learned if they package multiple base single motor routers in a eye catching way they can sell them for nearly same or more that two separate routers with their own bases.

[jimthej]

Both here and in the other thread of this discussion, folks are talking about using the plunge routers in router tables. Would someone please describe why this works better for them?
Some have described taking the springs out to make it easy to lift the router. I understand not fighting the springs and gravity. Has anyone thought of relocating the springs so they function as a lift? What would the problems or drawbacks be?
Am I reaching too far?