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a1gutterman
12-21-2008, 12:27 AM
In another thread, stevespix said:

I don't post often but this subject of tools and such made in China is something I know a little about. I'm a partner in a small tool producing business (name withheld). We were producing our product in the USA for several years which became more and more difficult to do. Here are the facts, for you union guys and democrats you may not want to read any further.
Government regulations, silly epa rules, ADA regulations, Air Quality, the court system and lawyers, regressive tax rates, State of CA tax do you get the picture yet? I can keep going, the people of this country have passed so many anti-business regulations we had to take our product to China to compete with the rest of the worlds market. We simply were forced to go to a more business friendly enviroment. As far as quality our product is as good or better than the one we produced in the USA. Our engineers developed the specs and when production began the manufacturing facility holds to our quality standards. I would much prefer to produce a product in the USA, shipping would be far eaiser and cheaper. Manufacturing facilities in China are state of the art, so don't be fooled that they cannot produce a fine product. The beauracy in this country has killed it's once thriving manufacturing capability and made it too expensive to do business. Unions will not make even small consessions and companys have just come to the conclusion it's eaiser to go overseas to make their product, so where's your job? Sorry to get on my soap box but it's easy to sit back and kibitz about tools and such but when your in business, if you want to stay in business you have to consider all options-- so when this country changes it's anti business enviroment then maybe we can move back and get to business.


Hi Steve,

What you say here about the business environment is quite true. I believe that we have too much government, too many hand outs, knot enough personal responsibility, too many bailouts (for both, financial mistakes and natural disasters), greedy unions and union members, all of which lead to high taxes and high cost of manufacturing US made product. I do understand the reasoning behind the move to China. (Does it have to be China? Why knot Mexico instead?)

Of course a product CAN be made equally well in China as it was in the US, but many products shipped here from China ARE KNOT equal in quality. On top of that, even with the low cost of Chinese labor, the low cost of manufacturing due to less taxes, lower cost of materials, little or no concern for the safety of workers (knot true for every industry), little or no concern for the environment, little or no concern for lead used in products (especially product intended for kids), the American companies that sell Chinese made product here in the US, at those lower costs, still charge the high prices that they were charging when their products were made here. So, there is the bone of contention that unions have with companies: Greed. But companies are knot alone in their greed.

The average Union auto worker, employed by the big three is earning(?) $80 per hour, including benefits. Foriegn car manufacturers, building cars here in the US with Union workers, are paying much less then that. Aren't their employees in the same union??? It is no wonder the US manufacturers can knot compete. The unions are cutting their own throats. I can see why many in the US congress want the big three to declare bankruptcy and renegotiate their union contracts. What assembly line worker really deserves $640 per day in wages and benefits? How can a person earning minimum wage or even $20 per hour afford to buy a car that is made by someone earning(?) $80 per hour? It is all about greed. Both sides. It is killing this country.

Yes, I understand your reasoning. I just do knot like it. But there is another reason that we should knot buy product that is made in China: They are our political enemy. The Chinese government is using US dollars to build their armed forces. They will become the domineering military might in the world, and they will do it soon, and they will do it with our money.

I will continue to go out of my way to purchase product made in the US. I am knot always successful. There is much product that is no longer made here. But I do the best that I can.

stevespix
12-21-2008, 02:09 AM
I would agree with your post. I have to go with bang for my buck and it was best served by doing business in China. They are the enemy, but that's politics and I'm a businessman. If your talking about weapons or high tech stuff then I would say we have no business there. I know alot of people on this forum will not buy at harbor freight but I will for the simple reason I can save a buck.
We as a country cannot continue down the same road we have traveled. The politicians in this country must be held accountable and the sad part is they will not be. Look at this mess in Chicago, no one seems to care. We are looking at a possible eight years of economic down turn. The only bright spot is oil seems to have gone the other way and may help the situation out.

This country has the greatest minds in the world as far as technology and business and the government does all it can to kill off any incentive for doing business. Until the voters realize that free health care etc is not free and that someone must pay for it nothing will be done. It goes back to personal responsiblity.

dusty
12-21-2008, 08:28 AM
I have been avoiding entering back into this discussion but I failed.

I share the opinions voiced here and in the original stevepix posting regarding the transition of US business overseas. Why does this happen is very clearly stated. It costs too much to maintain a viable business here in the US.

Unfortunately, much of that cost could be avoided if it was not for bureaucratic interference. But, because of our existing bureaucratic life styles, that condition is not likely to change (at least not in my lifetime).

Watch what is now happening to the automobile industry and you get a good preview of what is going to happen throughout our industrial intrastructure. Look back at what happened to the steel industry; it has gone the same path.

Posted elsewhere in this forum is a discussion about the clustering of the companies that make up the woodworking power tool industry. There are a lot of well recognized US company names there but are these really US held companies? I think not. The real holders are well hidden.

China is not the cause! China is simply one of the participants. Look around the rest of the world. There are many countries represented in the effort to actively take over what was at one time this countries' industrial base.

Why are they successful? IN PART because of actions similar to what the UAW just did to the automotive bailout proposal. Refuse to compromise. I think I would generalize it as greed.

Illinois politics might be another good case study? Then there is Louisiana politics (Hewey P. Long and family) and then there is ........ and the list goes on.

The perpetrators are not all Chinese by any stretch.

wa2crk
12-21-2008, 08:57 AM
I am reminded of an old comic strip I think it was "Pogo" or something like that.
" I have met the enemy and he is me"
BillV

bettyt44720
12-21-2008, 09:33 AM
here is something to think about. we need some sort of centralized importing/exporting structure. we need the same person that is buying the oil to be selling the wheat. we can make alcohol from wheat, can they make bread from oil?

wlhayesmfs
12-21-2008, 10:16 AM
I have not posted to this one because in most conversations I am the outsider but here I am one of you. Love this forum and the machines and Ideas it posts. I am one of the guys that makes 20 dollars an hour, works 60 hours a week on yearly salary to feed my kids and take care of my family. I have worked union and non union. I perfer the non union because I can think for myself and get paid what I work for. I work in retail. It has good benifits and I have done this for 21 years and it has taken good care of my family. I am not worried about it closing or laying me off. But as times get harder I see my job getting harder. Is big money for a short time what you are looking for or average money for as long as you want really more security. I will take the average money for as long as I want over great money short time. I just hope we can turn this around but like one of you said not in my lifetime. At 61 I won't see it.
Hope my grandkids do and still have my SS's to use and keep up.
Hope you all have a blessed Christmas and Happy New Year
Also Santa bring good wood tools.
Bill

hardway
12-21-2008, 12:56 PM
Let’s face it, foreign companies produce both junk and quality. It can also be argued American companies can and have produced junk. I will and do buy both American and Chinese.

While I know that the hourly wages has not been fairly represented in the press, still any worker in a UAW plant knows that they are overpaid for skill required to do a factory job . This is why they do not leave; the market around them would never ever employ them at this price.

It’s not the hourly wages as much as it is the work rules. Under UAW rules there is a proliferation of job categories, all of which the union can bring grievances about.

This has been going on for years. Again, it’s not the hourly wages, it’s being paid to not work. Even going back into the 1970's when I lived in Arizona, many of the “snowbirds” were getting 95% pay for retooling or any other plant shutdown. Next month UAW workers will get their 95% while Chrysler shuts down for 30 days.

No wonder I am opposed to the bailout to subsidize the UAW. The first foreign new car I bought was a Toyota. While the UAW was producing junk, I still drive that 1989 Camry 20 years and 270,000 miles later. While the quality of GM, Chrysler and Ford has improved, UAW has only gotten worse.

I am venting. We need to get off this subject. I could go on and on about the railroad unions and the history of Harley-Davison motorcycles.

bettyt44720
12-21-2008, 02:37 PM
in my driving time i have purchased 1 new chevy, 9 new ford products (each of which the quality got progressively worse) and finally a new toyota. the last ford was a '98 contour that had over 20 recalls only one of which was a safety issue. i finally told the service manager that i bought the car to keep in my garage, not theirs. ford didn't want to fix it but merely install a tin shield so that if the front spring were to break it might not sever a brake line. that was the final straw for me. in '05 i went to chevy to buy an impala. wow what poor quality of fit for the dash, door seams plus arrogant dealers. for the past 30 years the us car companies cry foul but continue to turn out poor vehicles. in the same 30 years the foreign car manufacturers have built new plants in the us and hired american workers. foreign cars are not cheaper than their us competion. just take a look. however compare the quality and percentage of american parts.